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#1: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 01:27:20 by dh

When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

Report this message

#2: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 02:06:40 by rupertmccallum

<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

I have my doubts as to whether the slaughtering that goes on at
abbatoirs is really as humane as you seem to believe. I have seen
footage of what goes on in abbatoirs and it doesn't look very humane to
me. But you're right, comparing what the different animals experience
is a consideration.

Report this message

#3: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 02:35:46 by GrtArtiste

&quot;When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider &quot;
&lt;snip&gt;

Why not just ask the cows what they want, and do what they tell you. If
you get an answer, by all means let us know.

GrtArtiste

Report this message

#4: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 05:41:25 by Joseph Littleshoes

<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

And after we learn how not to live off the suffering of other's we can
teach the lion to lay down with the lamb.

Even if the human animal were not brutally slaughtering other life
forms, other life forms would be doing so. Young animals will even
hunt for sport, just to stay in shape, or to get in shape to
successfully hunt.

&quot;nature red in tooth and claw&quot; its a jungle out there, and then there is
the heat death of the universe to consider.

(key Darth Vadar theme music)

Given the weapons that exist in the world to day it seems obvious some
very serious reconsideration must be made before we destroy what good
has been so hardly won.

But even at the best of times, the universe and our little mud ball
place in it is a very dangerous place. Susceptible to catastrophic
changes beyond orders of magnitude comprehensible to any unexposed to it.

So even if my diet were morally defensible i would still be uneasy about
the mere fact of existence, fortunately my Yoga teacher assures me its
all an illusion anyway.
---
JL

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#5: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 05:48:36 by nyx

<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
....and last time I checked, gee, I'd MUCH rather clog my arteries with
&quot;cow&quot; products than with a vegetable product...

....just so YOU know, there are a LOT of vegetarians/vegans out here are
who choose this lifestyle because of health. It is the humane thing for
ME to treat care about MY health and that of my family. For ME,
humanity starts at home.

Report this message

#6: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 07:52:04 by nyx

<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.

You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.

For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.

The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
feelings.

Report this message

#7: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 09:48:33 by rupertmccallum

nyx wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; &gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; &gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; &gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; &gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; &gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; &gt; rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
&gt; Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt; what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
&gt; agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
&gt; it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt; some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
&gt; have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
&gt; for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
&gt; because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
&gt; that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
&gt;
&gt; You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
&gt; cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
&gt; a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
&gt; I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt; and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt; vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
&gt; I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
&gt; well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
&gt; dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
&gt; you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
&gt;
&gt; For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt; rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
&gt; like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
&gt; work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
&gt;
&gt; The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt; seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
&gt; feelings.

I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons. He just thinks that
he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
animal rights that are often made and he wants to present these
criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
to disagree about.

Report this message

#8: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-08 20:11:56 by Isabeau

&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; <a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; &gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; &gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; &gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; &gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; &gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; &gt; rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.


&gt; Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt; what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
&gt; agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
&gt; it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt; some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
&gt; have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
&gt; for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
&gt; because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
&gt; that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
&gt;
&gt; You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
&gt; cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
&gt; a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
&gt; I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt; and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt; vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
&gt; I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
&gt; well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
&gt; dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
&gt; you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
&gt;
&gt; For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt; rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
&gt; like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
&gt; work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
&gt;
&gt; The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt; seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
&gt; feelings.
&gt;

Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected here
but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into the
&quot;no animal products&quot; life style but not for any reason other than for my own
personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's individual
choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and have
taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a little
irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains and
then I can again see the humor in their posts.
Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good health. A
friend recently gave me a book called &quot;The China Study&quot; by T. Colin Campbell
PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read as
well as the testing our family has done concerning &quot;animal products&quot; lol the
proof is in the good health, right?

good luck :)

Report this message

#9: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 03:24:53 by nyx

Isabeau wrote:
&gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt;&gt;&gt;rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt;&gt;&gt;whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt;&gt;&gt;or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt;&gt;&gt;dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt;&gt;&gt;and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt;&gt;&gt;rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt;&gt;what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
&gt;&gt;agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
&gt;&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
&gt;&gt;it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt;&gt;some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
&gt;&gt;have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
&gt;&gt;for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
&gt;&gt;because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
&gt;&gt;that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
&gt;&gt;cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
&gt;&gt;a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
&gt;&gt;I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt;&gt;and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt;&gt;vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
&gt;&gt;I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
&gt;&gt;well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
&gt;&gt;dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
&gt;&gt;you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt;&gt;rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
&gt;&gt;like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
&gt;&gt;work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt;&gt;seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
&gt;&gt;feelings.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected here
&gt; but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into the
&gt; &quot;no animal products&quot; life style but not for any reason other than for my own
&gt; personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
&gt; switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
&gt; convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's individual
&gt; choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
&gt; I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and have
&gt; taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a little
&gt; irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains and
&gt; then I can again see the humor in their posts.
&gt; Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
&gt; products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good health. A
&gt; friend recently gave me a book called &quot;The China Study&quot; by T. Colin Campbell
&gt; PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read as
&gt; well as the testing our family has done concerning &quot;animal products&quot; lol the
&gt; proof is in the good health, right?
&gt;
&gt; good luck :)
&gt;
&gt;
Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
&quot;proof&quot; of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
a beleiver.

Report this message

#10: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 03:39:59 by nyx

Rupert wrote:
&gt; nyx wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt;&gt;&gt;rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt;&gt;&gt;whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt;&gt;&gt;or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt;&gt;&gt;dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt;&gt;&gt;and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt;&gt;&gt;rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt;&gt;what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
&gt;&gt;agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
&gt;&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
&gt;&gt;it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt;&gt;some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
&gt;&gt;have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
&gt;&gt;for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
&gt;&gt;because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
&gt;&gt;that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
&gt;&gt;cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
&gt;&gt;a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
&gt;&gt;I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt;&gt;and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt;&gt;vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
&gt;&gt;I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
&gt;&gt;well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
&gt;&gt;dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
&gt;&gt;you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt;&gt;rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
&gt;&gt;like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
&gt;&gt;work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt;&gt;seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
&gt;&gt;feelings.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
&gt; wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons. He just thinks that
&gt; he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
&gt; animal rights that are often made and he wants to present these
&gt; criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
&gt; to disagree about.
&gt;
Thanks for clearing that up. I apoligize. I guess because I am new here
I wasn't aware of his views regarding the health issue. Maybe at some
point he'll let it be known to me how he stands on that one. Not that
it much matters, but I probably don't belong here either because I am
not a vegan. I am a strict vegetarian. I was hoping for something
different from this forum and I must apologize as it appears I've come
to the wrong place to get what I'm seeking from a newsgroup. I'll refrain.

Report this message

#11: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 08:40:32 by Isabeau

&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt; &gt;&gt;what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
&gt; &gt;&gt;agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
&gt; &gt;&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
&gt; &gt;&gt;it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt; &gt;&gt;some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
&gt; &gt;&gt;have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
&gt; &gt;&gt;for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
&gt; &gt;&gt;because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
&gt; &gt;&gt;that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
&gt; &gt;&gt;cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
&gt; &gt;&gt;a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
&gt; &gt;&gt;I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt; &gt;&gt;and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt; &gt;&gt;vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
&gt; &gt;&gt;I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
&gt; &gt;&gt;well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
&gt; &gt;&gt;dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
&gt; &gt;&gt;you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt; &gt;&gt;rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
&gt; &gt;&gt;like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
&gt; &gt;&gt;work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt; &gt;&gt;seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
&gt; &gt;&gt;feelings.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected
here
&gt; &gt; but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
the
&gt; &gt; &quot;no animal products&quot; life style but not for any reason other than for my
own
&gt; &gt; personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
&gt; &gt; switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
&gt; &gt; convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
individual
&gt; &gt; choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
&gt; &gt; I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
have
&gt; &gt; taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
little
&gt; &gt; irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains
and
&gt; &gt; then I can again see the humor in their posts.
&gt; &gt; Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
&gt; &gt; products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
health. A
&gt; &gt; friend recently gave me a book called &quot;The China Study&quot; by T. Colin
Campbell
&gt; &gt; PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read
as
&gt; &gt; well as the testing our family has done concerning &quot;animal products&quot; lol
the
&gt; &gt; proof is in the good health, right?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; good luck :)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt; about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
&gt; people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt; What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt; elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
&gt; has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
&gt; my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
&gt; better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
&gt; it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
&gt; about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
&gt; &quot;proof&quot; of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
&gt; affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt; a beleiver.


I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what I
am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so will
hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx. :D

Report this message

#12: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 14:35:23 by pearl

&quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&lt;..&gt;
&gt; &gt; Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt; &gt; about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
&gt; &gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
&gt; &gt; people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt; &gt; What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt; &gt; elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
&gt; &gt; has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
&gt; &gt; my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
&gt; &gt; better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
&gt; &gt; it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
&gt; &gt; about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
&gt; &gt; &quot;proof&quot; of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
&gt; &gt; affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt; &gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt; &gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt; &gt; a beleiver.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
&gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
&gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
&gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
&gt; learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what I
&gt; am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so will
&gt; hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx. :D

Gosh, people.. that's exactly what the trolls want! Use your killfiles
(you can access via your Newsreader's toolbar - Message - Create
Rule From Message - News, or simply Block Sender) and then post
away to your heart's content - use your Newsgroup for what it's for!

Report this message

#13: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 14:40:35 by Amanda

Sorry I cannot be of much help, I am on a seefood diet....I see food i eat
it...&lt;snort&gt;, but glad to see a new face here, i usually am pretty much a
lurker, but if I need a recipe or something, usually Kathy's the one...she's
the best to get that kind of info from!...as far as you wanting other
choices try alt.food.vegan, someone there may be able to help... but the
trolls are kinda overkill.....but ya know as was mentioned before use your
block button, and enjoy the rest of us....*cheese*
Amanda
*Smile it'll get better!*
&quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;your
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; as
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;but
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;what
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;feelings.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected
&gt; here
&gt;&gt; &gt; but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
&gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;no animal products&quot; life style but not for any reason other than for
&gt;&gt; &gt; my
&gt; own
&gt;&gt; &gt; personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
&gt;&gt; &gt; switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
&gt;&gt; &gt; convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
&gt; individual
&gt;&gt; &gt; choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
&gt; have
&gt;&gt; &gt; taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
&gt; little
&gt;&gt; &gt; irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains
&gt; and
&gt;&gt; &gt; then I can again see the humor in their posts.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
&gt;&gt; &gt; products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
&gt; health. A
&gt;&gt; &gt; friend recently gave me a book called &quot;The China Study&quot; by T. Colin
&gt; Campbell
&gt;&gt; &gt; PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read
&gt; as
&gt;&gt; &gt; well as the testing our family has done concerning &quot;animal products&quot;
&gt;&gt; &gt; lol
&gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt; proof is in the good health, right?
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; good luck :)
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt;&gt; about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
&gt;&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
&gt;&gt; people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt;&gt; What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt;&gt; elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
&gt;&gt; has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
&gt;&gt; my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
&gt;&gt; better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
&gt;&gt; it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
&gt;&gt; about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
&gt;&gt; &quot;proof&quot; of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
&gt;&gt; affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt; same.
&gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
&gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative
&gt; and
&gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
&gt; learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be what
&gt; I
&gt; am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so
&gt; will
&gt; hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx. :D
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#14: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 17:32:02 by AL

Isabeau wrote:
&gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message

&gt;&gt;Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt;&gt;about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
&gt;&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
&gt;&gt;people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt;&gt;What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt;&gt;elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
[...]

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
&gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
&gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
&gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
[...]



Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
you can draw fire from an even wider audience?

Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
focused on your interests.

Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
crossposting? You become the trolls.

Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms... :)




AL

Report this message

#15: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 18:06:15 by pearl

&quot;AL&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net" target="_blank">lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net..." target="_blank">qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net...</a>
&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt; &gt;&gt;about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
&gt; &gt;&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
&gt; &gt;&gt;people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt; &gt;&gt;What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt; &gt;&gt;elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
&gt; [...]
&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
&gt; &gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt; &gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't
&gt; &gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative and
&gt; &gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
&gt; [...]
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
&gt; you can draw fire from an even wider audience?

The crossposting flame troll is <a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>

&gt; Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
&gt; focused on your interests.

Maybe they did, .. I'm guessing alt.food.vegan.

&gt; Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
&gt; responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
&gt; else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
&gt; crossposting? You become the trolls.

You should do a bit of research yourself, and not falsely accuse others.

&gt; Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms... :)

Very polite. I for one think an apology is in order.

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; AL
&gt;

Report this message

#16: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 18:46:48 by Mrs Bonk

AL wrote:
&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt;&gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt;&gt;&gt; about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
&gt;&gt;&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
&gt;&gt;&gt; people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt;&gt;&gt; What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt;&gt;&gt; elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
&gt; [...]
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt;&gt; same. Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and
&gt;&gt; sharing information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I
&gt;&gt; really don't think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is
&gt;&gt; way to negative and confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as
&gt;&gt; well.
&gt; [...]
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
&gt; you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
&gt;
&gt; Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
&gt; focused on your interests.
&gt;
&gt; Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
&gt; responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
&gt; else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
&gt; crossposting? You become the trolls.
&gt;
&gt; Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms... :)
&gt;
These people are either extremely thick or they are trolls and as such
should be ignored. I have come into alt.cooking-chat specifically to ask the
dear posters of that group a question which is ON topic. I have had to
download, at great cost I might add, all these silly posts and chit chat and
not a recipe between them. What a waste of my time and money. I wouldn't be
surprised if Gregory Morrow was behind all this, him or Mr Beane no doubt.
Anyhow my question will be posed in alt.cooking-chat alone so if any trolls
or people of low mentality wish to answer they will have to subscribe to
that group.
Now enough of this nonsense and be off with the lot of you.

Report this message

#17: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 19:21:18 by Isabeau

&quot;pearl&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tea&#64;signguestbook.ie" target="_blank">tea&#64;signguestbook.ie</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e3q27n$fth$<a href="mailto:1&#64;reader01.news.esat.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;reader01.news.esat.net...</a>
&gt; &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &lt;..&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt; &gt; &gt; about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
that.
&gt; &gt; &gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like
minded
&gt; &gt; &gt; people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt; &gt; &gt; What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt; &gt; &gt; elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so
far
&gt; &gt; &gt; has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some
of
&gt; &gt; &gt; my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
&gt; &gt; &gt; better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved
in
&gt; &gt; &gt; it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
&gt; &gt; &gt; about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;proof&quot; of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
&gt; &gt; &gt; affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt; &gt; &gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote
them.
&gt; &gt; &gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I
am
&gt; &gt; &gt; a beleiver.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
same.
&gt; &gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt; &gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
don't
&gt; &gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative
and
&gt; &gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
&gt; &gt; learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be
what I
&gt; &gt; am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so
will
&gt; &gt; hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx. :D
&gt;
&gt; Gosh, people.. that's exactly what the trolls want! Use your killfiles
&gt; (you can access via your Newsreader's toolbar - Message - Create
&gt; Rule From Message - News, or simply Block Sender) and then post
&gt; away to your heart's content - use your Newsgroup for what it's for!
&gt;
&gt;


Good advice Pearl, I'll give it a try. tyvm :)

Report this message

#18: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 19:31:11 by Isabeau

lol, tyvm Amanda I have a seefood diet too I seldom eat meals anymore I just
graze through the day, it works much better for me. We as human animals
think we are so smart but we are the only ones who limit our consumption of
nourishing foods to meals. In the process when we do get to the meal we
usually are starving and ready to break the arm of the first person that
gets in our way of the food. lol That's how I felt all the time so I decided
after watching nature a bit, to borrow some of that natural animal
intelligence and try eating whenever I was hungry. Worked like a charm for
me and now, lol my husbands arm is healing up quite nicely. :D

The block button it is then :)

--
Isabeau :)

~*~ Credendo Vides ~*~
'by believing, one sees'
&quot;Amanda&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dyllomom&#64;charter.net" target="_blank">dyllomom&#64;charter.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:7508g.3$<a href="mailto:Yv5.0&#64;fe03.lga..." target="_blank">Yv5.0&#64;fe03.lga...</a>
&gt; Sorry I cannot be of much help, I am on a seefood diet....I see food i eat
&gt; it...&lt;snort&gt;, but glad to see a new face here, i usually am pretty much a
&gt; lurker, but if I need a recipe or something, usually Kathy's the
one...she's
&gt; the best to get that kind of info from!...as far as you wanting other
&gt; choices try alt.food.vegan, someone there may be able to help... but the
&gt; trolls are kinda overkill.....but ya know as was mentioned before use your
&gt; block button, and enjoy the rest of us....*cheese*
&gt; Amanda
&gt; *Smile it'll get better!*
&gt; &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">_cCdneioH-T_pP3ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">m6ednfYwwNv7csLZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;your
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of
life.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; as
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY
important
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the
lifestyle
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;but
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that
eating
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry,
but
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;what
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health
and
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR
life
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But
don't
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of
people
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that
didn't
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;feelings.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I
expected
&gt; &gt; here
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into
&gt; &gt; the
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;no animal products&quot; life style but not for any reason other than for
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; my
&gt; &gt; own
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's
&gt; &gt; individual
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and
&gt; &gt; have
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a
&gt; &gt; little
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our
chains
&gt; &gt; and
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; then I can again see the humor in their posts.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that
animal
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good
&gt; &gt; health. A
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; friend recently gave me a book called &quot;The China Study&quot; by T. Colin
&gt; &gt; Campbell
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had
read
&gt; &gt; as
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; well as the testing our family has done concerning &quot;animal products&quot;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; lol
&gt; &gt; the
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; proof is in the good health, right?
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; good luck :)
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt; &gt;&gt; about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
that.
&gt; &gt;&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like
minded
&gt; &gt;&gt; people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt; &gt;&gt; What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt; &gt;&gt; elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
&gt; &gt;&gt; has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some
of
&gt; &gt;&gt; my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
&gt; &gt;&gt; better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved
in
&gt; &gt;&gt; it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
&gt; &gt;&gt; about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;proof&quot; of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
&gt; &gt;&gt; affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt; &gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt; &gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I
am
&gt; &gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt; &gt; same.
&gt; &gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt; &gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
don't
&gt; &gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative
&gt; &gt; and
&gt; &gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. Was hoping to
&gt; &gt; learn more about what vegan really meant but doesn't seem to me to be
what
&gt; &gt; I
&gt; &gt; am looking for. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion though so
&gt; &gt; will
&gt; &gt; hang around a little longer. Nice to have met you though nyx. :D
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#19: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 19:34:18 by pearl

&quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:d_udndcxpZkNUv3ZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">d_udndcxpZkNUv3ZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;pearl&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tea&#64;signguestbook.ie" target="_blank">tea&#64;signguestbook.ie</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:e3q27n$fth$<a href="mailto:1&#64;reader01.news.esat.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;reader01.news.esat.net...</a>
&lt;..&gt;
&gt; &gt; Gosh, people.. that's exactly what the trolls want! Use your killfiles
&gt; &gt; (you can access via your Newsreader's toolbar - Message - Create
&gt; &gt; Rule From Message - News, or simply Block Sender) and then post
&gt; &gt; away to your heart's content - use your Newsgroup for what it's for!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Good advice Pearl, I'll give it a try. tyvm :)

Wicked. ;).

Report this message

#20: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 19:43:48 by Isabeau

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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charset=&quot;iso-8859-1&quot;
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&quot;AL&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net" target="_blank">lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net</a>&gt; wrote in message =
news:<a href="mailto:qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net..." target="_blank">qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net...</a>
&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;&gt;Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little =
tidbits
&gt; &gt;&gt;about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like =
that.
&gt; &gt;&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like =
minded
&gt; &gt;&gt;people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt; &gt;&gt;What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt; &gt;&gt;elsewhere for what I came here to seek.=20
&gt; [...]
&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; &gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting =
the same.
&gt; &gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and =
sharing
&gt; &gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really =
don't
&gt; &gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to =
negative and
&gt; &gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.=20
&gt; [...]
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt; Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and =
maybe=20
&gt; you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
&gt;=20
&gt; Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group=20
&gt; focused on your interests.
&gt;=20
&gt; Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading =
for=20
&gt; responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, =
everyone=20
&gt; else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your =

&gt; crossposting? You become the trolls.
&gt;=20
&gt; Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms... :)
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt; AL
&gt;=20

I'm not sure I understand what your talking about AL. I have only =
subscribed to ONE newsgroup and that is &quot;alt.food.vegan&quot; for the purpose =
of finding out more about veganism (sp). Have I cross posted to other =
newgroups by answering another poster? looking up at the toolbar I see,=20

Newsgroups: =
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,alt. food,alt.cook=
ing-chat

I don't suscribe to the other newsgroups and you are the only person so =
far who has said anything about it lol. You are also the first name in =
my kill file lol. You will have alot of good company in there I'm sure =
:)

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&lt;HTML&gt;&lt;HEAD&gt;
&lt;META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D&quot;text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1&quot;&gt;
&lt;META content=3D&quot;MSHTML 6.00.2745.2800&quot; name=3DGENERATOR&gt;
&lt;STYLE&gt;&lt;/STYLE&gt;
&lt;/HEAD&gt;
&lt;BODY&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;&quot;AL&quot; &amp;lt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;A=20
href=3D&quot;mailto:<a href="mailto:lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net" target="_blank">lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net</a>&quot;&gt;&lt;FONT=20
face=3DArial&gt;<a href="mailto:lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net" target="_blank">lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net</a>&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/A&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;&amp;gt; =
wrote in=20
message &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;A =
href=3D&quot;news:<a href="mailto:qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net" target="_blank">qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net</a>&quot;&gt;&lt;FONT=20
face=3DArial&gt;news:<a href="mailto:qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net" target="_blank">qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net</a>&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/A&gt;&lt;FONT =

face=3DArial&gt;...&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;&amp;gt; Isabeau wrote:&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &quot;nyx&quot; =
&amp;lt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;A=20
href=3D&quot;mailto:<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&quot;&gt;&lt;FONT=20
face=3DArial&gt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/A&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;&amp;gt; wrote =
in=20
message&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Thanks!&amp;nbsp; I guess what I expected =
was=20
recipies, and nice little tidbits&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt;about how to order =
vegetarian=20
dishes in restraunts, something like that.&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;nbsp; I =
suppose what=20
I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; =
&amp;gt;&amp;gt;people=20
to share experiences and thoughts.&amp;nbsp; I am deeply =
disappointed.&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
&amp;gt;&amp;gt;What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will =
look&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
&amp;gt;&amp;gt;elsewhere for what I came here to seek. &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; [...]&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; =
&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; I understand exactly what =
you are=20
saying I was actually expecting the same.&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; Positive like =
minded=20
people interested in helping each other and sharing&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; =
information on=20
veganism, health, food and common interests. I really don't&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; =
think=20
any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to negative =
and&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
&amp;gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well. &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
[...]&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; Why don't you both add a few =
more=20
groups to your crossposting and maybe &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; you can draw fire from an =
even=20
wider audience?&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; Maybe if you did just a bit of research =
you=20
could find a single group &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; focused on your interests.&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; =
&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for =
&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone =
&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your =
&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
crossposting? You become the trolls.&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; Besides, whacked =
out=20
people like you belong in chat rooms...&amp;nbsp; :)&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; =
&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt;=20
&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; AL&lt;BR&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;I'm not sure I understand what your talking =
about AL. I=20
have only subscribed to ONE newsgroup and that is &quot;alt.food.vegan&quot; for =
the=20
purpose of finding out more about veganism (sp). Have I cross posted to =
other=20
newgroups by answering another poster? looking up at the toolbar I see,=20
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;Newsgroups:=20
&lt;U&gt; alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,alt. food,alt.c=
ooking-chat&lt;/U&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;U&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/U&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial&gt;I don't suscribe to the other newsgroups and you =
are the=20
only person so far who has said anything about it lol. You are also the =
first=20
name in my kill file lol. You will have alot of good company in there =
I'm=20
sure&amp;nbsp; :)&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;&lt;/BODY&gt;&lt;/HTML&gt;

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Report this message

#21: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 19:50:27 by Amanda

Ahh, it's ok pearl...I like my &quot;wickedness&quot;...Lol,It makes me stronger
through life...LOL
Amanda
*Smile it'll get better!*
&quot;pearl&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tea&#64;signguestbook.ie" target="_blank">tea&#64;signguestbook.ie</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e3qeio$kg5$<a href="mailto:1&#64;reader01.news.esat.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;reader01.news.esat.net...</a>
&gt; &quot;AL&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net" target="_blank">lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net..." target="_blank">qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;that.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; minded
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;elsewhere for what I came here to seek.
&gt;&gt; [...]
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt;&gt; &gt; same.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and
&gt;&gt; &gt; sharing
&gt;&gt; &gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests. I really
&gt;&gt; &gt; don't
&gt;&gt; &gt; think any of that is to be found here. The atmosphere is way to
&gt;&gt; &gt; negative and
&gt;&gt; &gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
&gt;&gt; [...]
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
&gt;&gt; you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
&gt;
&gt; The crossposting flame troll is <a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Maybe if you did just a bit of research you could find a single group
&gt;&gt; focused on your interests.
&gt;
&gt; Maybe they did, .. I'm guessing alt.food.vegan.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Since I can't know which of these 5 groups you are actually reading for
&gt;&gt; responses I'm forced to send to all of them to reach you. And, everyone
&gt;&gt; else responding to your posts must do the same. See the effect of your
&gt;&gt; crossposting? You become the trolls.
&gt;
&gt; You should do a bit of research yourself, and not falsely accuse others.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Besides, whacked out people like you belong in chat rooms... :)
&gt;
&gt; Very polite. I for one think an apology is in order.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; AL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#22: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-09 20:06:41 by pearl

&quot;Amanda&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dyllomom&#64;charter.net" target="_blank">dyllomom&#64;charter.net</a>&gt; wrote in message news:CD48g.36$<a href="mailto:yq3.11&#64;fe06.lga..." target="_blank">yq3.11&#64;fe06.lga...</a>
&gt; Ahh, it's ok pearl...I like my &quot;wickedness&quot;...Lol,It makes me stronger
&gt; through life...LOL
&gt; Amanda

You're in the right place then. ;)

&gt; *Smile it'll get better!*

*:)*

Report this message

#23: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 03:22:29 by dh

On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message

&gt;&gt; These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
&gt;Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt;information on veganism, health, food and common interests.

I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.

Report this message

#24: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 03:22:37 by dh

On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:06:15 +0100, &quot;pearl&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tea&#64;signguestbook.ie" target="_blank">tea&#64;signguestbook.ie</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&quot;AL&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net" target="_blank">lithar&#64;hamiltoncom.net</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net..." target="_blank">qt6dnX1oUZGfK_3ZRVn-rQ&#64;shawneelink.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Isabeau wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; The atmosphere is way to negative and
&gt;&gt; &gt; confrontational. I think I am in the wrong forum as well.
&gt;&gt; [...]
&gt;&gt; Why don't you both add a few more groups to your crossposting and maybe
&gt;&gt; you can draw fire from an even wider audience?
&gt;
&gt;The crossposting flame troll is <a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>

This is on topic for people who are considering the ethics of their
lifestyle, if there are any.

Report this message

#25: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 03:22:42 by dh

On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:46:48 +0100, &quot;Mrs Bonk&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:arse&#64;cuteyspamout.com" target="_blank">arse&#64;cuteyspamout.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;I have had to download, at great cost I might add, all these silly posts
&gt;and chit chat

Then you must be a fool.

Report this message

#26: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 03:23:24 by dh

On Sun, 07 May 2006 23:52:04 -0600, nyx &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt;&gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt;&gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt;&gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt;&gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt;&gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt;&gt; rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

&gt;Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
&gt;what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
&gt;agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
&gt; You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
&gt;it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
&gt;some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view.

I encourage people to consider the animals' position. Other people
oppose the suggestion.

&gt;Now I
&gt;have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
&gt;for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
&gt;because of the animal issues.

Since you have no interest in them, any topics that consider them
are a waste of your time. So now the question comes to mind: Why
are you opposing me for posting about a topic that you don't even
care about?

&gt;I personally don't like what goes on, but that is NOT my reason for being
&gt;a vegan. You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle.

Being a vegan is more than just about what you eat. If you don't
do it for ethical reasons, you are not a vegan. You're some other
type of vegetarian *maybe!*, but you are no vegan.

&gt;You can
&gt;cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
&gt;a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
&gt;I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
&gt;and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
&gt;vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
&gt;I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
&gt;well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
&gt;dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
&gt;you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.

Regardless of what it does or doesn't do for you, it does nothing
for any animals. My objective is to get people to consider the animals
raised for food, not to consider you.

&gt;For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
&gt;rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
&gt;like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
&gt;work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.

No. You don't even speak for yourself, because you never had a
way of life that I encourage people to think about, and neither has
anyone else in these ngs except maybe Rick Etter. But oddly enough
there: Etter's lifestyle probably is the best in these ngs in regards to
contributing to decent lives for farm animals, but Etter himself doesn't
care in the least about that aspect of it. Oddly on the other end of the
same thing: I've met &quot;ar&quot; types who appear to want to claim credit
for contibuting to the very lives that they want to *prevent*--those of
animals raised for food. There's all sorts of kooky stuff around here...

&gt;The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
&gt;seems like a waste of my time to read,

Of course it is. You have no interest in the animals, but the animals
are what I encourage people to think about. Duh.

&gt;but as a newby, I'm venting my feelings.

Well, if you're going to complain every time someone points out
something you don't care about, you're likely to stay pretty busy
wasting time.

Report this message

#27: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 03:26:08 by dh

On 8 May 2006 00:48:33 -0700, &quot;Rupert&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rupertmccallum&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">rupertmccallum&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
&gt;wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons.

People don't go vegan for health reasons! What's wrong with you
folks? People go *vegetarian* for health reasons, but they only go
vegan for ethical reasons:
_________________________________________________________
The Vegan Society of New South Wales defines Veganism the following way:

Veganism is a way of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the
exclusion of all products from the animal kingdom. A vegan is a total vegetarian
who consumes no animal by-products.

Vegans go even further by avoiding both animal derivatives and animal-tested
products in their whole lifestyle. This means an avoidance of meat, milk, eggs,
butter etc., as well as leather, wool, cosmetics, soaps and shampoos derived
from animal ingredients or tested on animals.

Why? Most people who have chosen a vegan lifestyle have done so because
they have become aware of the cruelty and exploitation involved in the making
of animal products.

Vegans choose to act positively to reduce this cruelty by abstaining from
animal-derived products and thereby reducing the demand for them. Vegans
realise that it is unnecessary to inflict suffering on animals in order to lead a
healthy, happy, normal life.
[...]
<a href="http://www.vnv.org.au/Definitions.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vnv.org.au/Definitions.htm</a>
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
&gt;He just thinks that
&gt;he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
&gt;animal rights that are often made

I would like to be sure every person understands that being vegan
does NOTHING to help any farm animals, so if people want to help farm
animals with their lifestyle they should be more conscientious consumers
of animal products, NOT vegans. I still don't know what people find
wrong with that, but there are plenty of people opposed to it. The opposition
is a good thing, because it shows that some people are afraid it could
be significant....they're afraid that other people might consider some
alternatives to be ethically equivalent or superior to veganism.

&gt; and he wants to present these
&gt;criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
&gt;to disagree about.

That may be, but it doesn't mean much. People who are in favor
of decent AW should be completely in favor of what I point out, but I've
seen people who (extremely dishonestly imo) claim to be in favor of
decent AW oppose the suggestion to deliberately try contributing to it.

Report this message

#28: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 06:35:14 by Dutch

&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt;&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt;&gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt;&gt;same.
&gt;&gt;Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt;&gt;information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
&gt;
&gt; I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
&gt; would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
&gt; with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
&gt; What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
&gt; whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
&gt; can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.

You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
instead of being vegan, right?

Report this message

#29: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 06:52:34 by rupertmccallum

<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt; On 8 May 2006 00:48:33 -0700, &quot;Rupert&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rupertmccallum&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">rupertmccallum&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
&gt; &gt;wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons.
&gt;
&gt; People don't go vegan for health reasons!

Some people do.

&gt; What's wrong with you
&gt; folks? People go *vegetarian* for health reasons, but they only go
&gt; vegan for ethical reasons:
&gt; _________________________________________________________
&gt; The Vegan Society of New South Wales defines Veganism the following way:
&gt;
&gt; Veganism is a way of living on the products of the plant kingdom to t=
he
&gt; exclusion of all products from the animal kingdom. A vegan is a total veg=
etarian
&gt; who consumes no animal by-products.
&gt;
&gt; Vegans go even further by avoiding both animal derivatives and animal=
-tested
&gt; products in their whole lifestyle. This means an avoidance of meat, milk,=
eggs,
&gt; butter etc., as well as leather, wool, cosmetics, soaps and shampoos deri=
ved
&gt; from animal ingredients or tested on animals.
&gt;
&gt; Why? Most people who have chosen a vegan lifestyle have done so becau=
se
&gt; they have become aware of the cruelty and exploitation involved in the ma=
king
&gt; of animal products.
&gt;
&gt; Vegans choose to act positively to reduce this cruelty by abstaining =
from
&gt; animal-derived products and thereby reducing the demand for them. Vegans
&gt; realise that it is unnecessary to inflict suffering on animals in order t=
o lead a
&gt; healthy, happy, normal life.
&gt; [...]
&gt; <a href="http://www.vnv.org.au/Definitions.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vnv.org.au/Definitions.htm</a>
&gt; =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF =AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF
&gt; &gt;He just thinks that
&gt; &gt;he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
&gt; &gt;animal rights that are often made
&gt;
&gt; I would like to be sure every person understands that being vegan
&gt; does NOTHING to help any farm animals, so if people want to help farm
&gt; animals with their lifestyle they should be more conscientious consumers
&gt; of animal products, NOT vegans. I still don't know what people find
&gt; wrong with that, but there are plenty of people opposed to it. The opposi=
tion
&gt; is a good thing, because it shows that some people are afraid it could
&gt; be significant....they're afraid that other people might consider some
&gt; alternatives to be ethically equivalent or superior to veganism.
&gt;

Veganism reduces one's contribution to processes that harm farm
animals. In that sense it helps farm animals. Some alternatives might
be at least as good, yes.

&gt; &gt; and he wants to present these
&gt; &gt;criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
&gt; &gt;to disagree about.
&gt;
&gt; That may be, but it doesn't mean much. People who are in favor
&gt; of decent AW should be completely in favor of what I point out, but I've
&gt; seen people who (extremely dishonestly imo) claim to be in favor of
&gt; decent AW oppose the suggestion to deliberately try contributing to it.

Report this message

#30: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 06:58:44 by pipes

Rupert wrote:

&gt; <a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;On 8 May 2006 00:48:33 -0700, &quot;Rupert&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rupertmccallum&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">rupertmccallum&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
&gt;&gt;&gt;wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; People don't go vegan for health reasons!
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Some people do.

False. No one goes &quot;vegan&quot; for health reasons. As
Fuckwit says below - one of his rare wins - people go
*vegetarian* for health reasons. &quot;vegan&quot; is the
complete avoidance of all animal-derived products,
including clothing, upholstery, dairy, honey, lanolin,
etc. People who go &quot;vegan&quot; are doing so based on their
feelings about animals, not on their health considerations.

Report this message

#31: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 07:00:20 by pipes

Fuckwit David Harrison, ordinary ignorant cracker, lied:

&gt; On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt;&gt;read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt;&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt;&gt;&gt;a beleiver.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the same.
&gt;&gt;Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt;&gt;information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
&gt; would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock

Causing animals to &quot;get to experience life&quot; is not
doing those animals any favor, FUCKWIT.

Report this message

#32: Re: What NOT to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 07:38:02 by pipes

Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant unethical lying
cracker, lied:

&gt; When considering ethically

[something Fuckwit David Harrison has never done]


When considering your food choices ethically, assign
ZERO weight to the morally empty fact that choosing to
eat meat causes animals to be bred into existence.

Causing animals to exist does not do any &quot;favor&quot; to
those animals; and choosing not to eat meat (causing no
animals to be produced) does no harm to any animal's
interest.

Livestock animals' &quot;getting to experience life&quot; is of
no moral value at all. If you choose to eat meat and
cause animals to live, you have done no favor to
animals; if you choose the opposite, you have harmed no
animals' interest. The choice is morally empty,
insofar as animals are concerned.

Report this message

#33: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 08:05:32 by Joseph Littleshoes

Leif Erikson wrote:
&gt; Fuckwit David Harrison, ordinary ignorant cracker, lied:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt;&gt;&gt; same.
&gt;&gt;&gt; Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt;&gt;&gt; information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that
&gt;&gt; people would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for
&gt;&gt; livestock
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Causing animals to &quot;get to experience life&quot; is not doing those animals
&gt; any favor, FUCKWIT.


&quot;And the lion shall lay down with the lamb&quot;

Report this message

#34: How absurd IS this Goober?

Posted on 2006-05-10 18:18:21 by dh

On Wed, 10 May 2006, Goobernicus proclaimed:

&gt;When considering your food choices ethically, assign
&gt;ZERO weight to the morally empty fact that choosing to
&gt;eat meat causes animals to be bred into existence.

Well Goo, if you argee with yourself about that, and if
you also agree with yourself that:

&quot;NO animals benefit from farming&quot; - Goo

&quot;the moral harm caused by killing them is greater in
magnitude than ANY benefit they might derive from
&quot;decent lives&quot;&quot; - Goo

&quot;ONLY deliberate human killing deserves any moral
consideration.&quot; - Goo

&quot;We're ONLY talking about deliberate human killing&quot; - Goo

&quot;the nutritionally unnecessary choice deliberately to kill an
animal ALWAYS causes a moral harm greater in magnitude
than . . . the moral &quot;benefit&quot; realized by the animal in existing
at all&quot; - Goo

Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:

&quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
of the animals erases all of it.&quot; - Goo

or do you think you disagree with yourself about several of
your beliefs Goo? And if so, which particular ones and why
or how do you disagree with yourself about them? Don't
just ineptly say you disagree without providing any reason
again, but explain your absurdity in at least some detail
for once, you lame Goober.

Report this message

#35: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 18:18:40 by dh

On Wed, 10 May 2006 06:05:32 GMT, Joseph Littleshoes &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&quot;And the lion shall lay down with the lamb&quot;

While he finishes eating it.

Report this message

#36: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-10 18:22:27 by dh

On Tue, 9 May 2006 21:35:14 -0700, &quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt;&gt;&gt;same.
&gt;&gt;&gt;Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt;&gt;&gt;information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that people
&gt;&gt; would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
&gt;&gt; with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
&gt;&gt; What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
&gt;&gt; whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
&gt;&gt; can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.
&gt;
&gt;You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
&gt;instead of being vegan, right?

By consuming products which they feel contribute to lives of positive
value for farm animals. In the past you pretended to understand that:

&quot;The method of husbandry determines whether or not the life
has positive or negative value to the animal.&quot;

but later tried to disagree with yourself, or whatever it was you were
trying to do. Are you now agreeing with yourself again or something?
Are you again pretending to understand the truth of what you wrote,
or can you now explain why you think you were wrong to have ever
believed it to begin with?

Report this message

#37: Re: How absurd IS this Goober?

Posted on 2006-05-10 19:53:11 by Walter Pipes

Fuckwit David Harrison, lying IMMATURE cracker who
projects his wishes onto animals, blabbered:

&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006, Leif Erikson *AGAIN* showed Fuckwit David Harrison to be the ignorant, deluded cracker that he is:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;When considering your food choices ethically, assign
&gt;&gt;ZERO weight to the morally empty fact that choosing to
&gt;&gt;eat meat causes animals to be bred into existence.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Well Leif, if you argee with yourself about that, and if
&gt; you also agree with yourself that:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;NO animals benefit from farming&quot; - Leif

True statement. When you, Fuckwit, write &quot;benefit from
farming&quot;, what you MEAN, Fuckwit, is &quot;benefit from
coming into existence.&quot; And no animals &quot;benefit&quot; from
coming into existence.


&gt; [snip Fuckwit's unethically and dishonestly edited pseudo-quotes]
&gt;
&gt; Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt; of the animals erases all of it.&quot;

I didn't write that.

Report this message

#38: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-11 08:02:08 by Dutch

&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:2j4462paakt0flq0cgt9akp7or35ok850j&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">2j4462paakt0flq0cgt9akp7or35ok850j&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On Tue, 9 May 2006 21:35:14 -0700, &quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; them.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; am
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;same.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that
&gt;&gt;&gt; people
&gt;&gt;&gt; would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
&gt;&gt;&gt; with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
&gt;&gt;&gt; What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
&gt;&gt;&gt; whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
&gt;&gt;&gt; can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
&gt;&gt;instead of being vegan, right?
&gt;
&gt; By consuming products which they feel contribute to lives of positive
&gt; value for farm animals.

What if they feel that no animal products do that to their satisfaction?
Wouldn't it then be more ethical of them to be vegans? Would they not be
more consistent with their ideals than say people who claim to care about
animals, then consume animal products with little regard for the value of
the animals' lives?


{..}

Report this message

#39: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-12 00:15:23 by Joseph Littleshoes

<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:

&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006 06:05:32 GMT, Joseph Littleshoes &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;And the lion shall lay down with the lamb&quot;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; While he finishes eating it.


My point exactly, perhaps i should have been a bit more sarcastic.

I do not believe humans are some special animal blessed (or cursed
depending on your point of view) by some deity to follow some esoteric
moral code. We are animals, and how is any individual to say which diet
is right for the lion and which is right for the horse.

It amazes me how people can get so upset about animals while there is so
much human suffering going on. Perhaps if we were better to each other
we would be better to other animals.
---
JL

Report this message

#40: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-13 17:40:07 by dh

On Thu, 11 May 2006 22:15:23 GMT, Joseph Littleshoes &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006 06:05:32 GMT, Joseph Littleshoes &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;And the lion shall lay down with the lamb&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; While he finishes eating it.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;My point exactly, perhaps i should have been a bit more sarcastic.
&gt;
&gt;I do not believe humans are some special animal blessed (or cursed
&gt;depending on your point of view) by some deity

How did you decide what you want to believe?

&gt;to follow some esoteric
&gt;moral code. We are animals, and how is any individual to say which diet
&gt;is right for the lion and which is right for the horse.

The horse's diet could not sustain the lion. What does that have to do
with what an individual said or says?

&gt;It amazes me how people can get so upset about animals while there is so
&gt;much human suffering going on.

Then you should avoid things that are concerned with animals. Duh.

Report this message

#41: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-13 17:45:08 by dh

On Wed, 10 May 2006 23:02:08 -0700, &quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:2j4462paakt0flq0cgt9akp7or35ok850j&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">2j4462paakt0flq0cgt9akp7or35ok850j&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; On Tue, 9 May 2006 21:35:14 -0700, &quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote in message news:<a href="mailto:l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">l1g26217826n49804idik2e22u1k7hu8q4&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, 8 May 2006 23:40:32 -0700, &quot;Isabeau&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:isabeau13&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">isabeau13&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;nyx&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nyx77&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">nyx77&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; These people only know what bits and pieces they
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; them.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; am
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a beleiver.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I understand exactly what you are saying I was actually expecting the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;same.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Positive like minded people interested in helping each other and sharing
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;information on veganism, health, food and common interests.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I've got you all beat :-) Before I got involved, I thought that
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; people
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; would be discussing ways to contribute to better lives for livestock
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; with their lifestyle, and other things that would actually help animals.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What a hoot that is! Instead I've spent the past seven years (or
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; whatever) having people *oppose* the suggestion any way they
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can, quite often lying about me and what I'm suggesting.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
&gt;&gt;&gt;instead of being vegan, right?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; By consuming products which they feel contribute to lives of positive
&gt;&gt; value for farm animals.
&gt;
&gt;What if they feel that no animal products do that to their satisfaction?

Then they can't deliberately contribute to anything good for farm animals,
even though other people can.

&gt;Wouldn't it then be more ethical of them to be vegans? Would they not be
&gt;more consistent with their ideals than say people who claim to care about
&gt;animals, then consume animal products with little regard for the value of
&gt;the animals' lives?

I'll say that I don't think any less of people who just admit that they
don't care, than I do of people who want to claim some credit for supporting
the rights of animals they would prevent from ever existing.

Report this message

#42: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-13 21:06:45 by Dutch

&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; &quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:

[..]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;instead of being vegan, right?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; By consuming products which they feel contribute to lives of positive
&gt;&gt;&gt; value for farm animals.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;What if they feel that no animal products do that to their satisfaction?
&gt;
&gt; Then they can't deliberately contribute to anything good for farm
&gt; animals,
&gt; even though other people can.

That's not true, many vegetarians deliberately contribute time and money
towards promoting good for farm animals.

&gt;&gt;Wouldn't it then be more ethical of them to be vegans? Would they not be
&gt;&gt;more consistent with their ideals than say people who claim to care about
&gt;&gt;animals, then consume animal products with little regard for the value of
&gt;&gt;the animals' lives?
&gt;
&gt; I'll say that I don't think any less of people who just admit that they
&gt; don't care,

That's not what I asked. I said people who &quot;claim to care about animals&quot;, as
many people do, yet simply consume animal products with no regard for the
animals. That seems hypocritical.

&gt; than I do of people who want to claim some credit for supporting
&gt; the rights of animals they would prevent from ever existing.

Where's the harm in preventing livestock from ever existing?

Report this message

#43: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-13 21:20:56 by Joseph Littleshoes

Dutch wrote:

&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; [..]
&gt;
&gt;
Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;? remains of very old animals but still...

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;instead of being vegan, right?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; By consuming products which they feel contribute to lives of positive
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;value for farm animals.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;What if they feel that no animal products do that to their satisfaction?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Then they can't deliberately contribute to anything good for farm
&gt;&gt;animals,
&gt;&gt;even though other people can.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; That's not true, many vegetarians deliberately contribute time and money
&gt; towards promoting good for farm animals.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Wouldn't it then be more ethical of them to be vegans? Would they not be
&gt;&gt;&gt;more consistent with their ideals than say people who claim to care about
&gt;&gt;&gt;animals, then consume animal products with little regard for the value of
&gt;&gt;&gt;the animals' lives?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I'll say that I don't think any less of people who just admit that they
&gt;&gt;don't care,
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; That's not what I asked. I said people who &quot;claim to care about animals&quot;, as
&gt; many people do, yet simply consume animal products with no regard for the
&gt; animals. That seems hypocritical.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;than I do of people who want to claim some credit for supporting
&gt;&gt;the rights of animals they would prevent from ever existing.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Where's the harm in preventing livestock from ever existing?
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#44: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-13 23:19:20 by Dutch

&quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote

&gt; Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?

No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty toll on
animal populations.

Report this message

#45: Re: What to consider?

Posted on 2006-05-15 19:26:00 by testicling

On Sat, 13 May 2006 12:06:45 -0700, &quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt; &quot;Dutch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;email.com" target="_blank">no&#64;email.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;[..]
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;You're suggesting that people help animals by consuming animal products
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;instead of being vegan, right?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; By consuming products which they feel contribute to lives of positive
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; value for farm animals.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;What if they feel that no animal products do that to their satisfaction?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Then they can't deliberately contribute to anything good for farm
&gt;&gt; animals,
&gt;&gt; even though other people can.
&gt;
&gt;That's not true, many vegetarians deliberately contribute time and money
&gt;towards promoting good for farm animals.

Why do you think it's good that they do it with time and money but
not with their consumption of products? Why are you opposed to seeing
anyone do it by consumption of products?

Report this message

#46: Re: How absurd IS this Goober?

Posted on 2006-05-15 19:36:09 by testicling

On Wed, 10 May 2006, Goo desperately/hilariously lied:

&gt;dh asked an inept Goober:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt;&gt; of the animals erases all of it.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;I didn't write that.

You sure did Goo. Then later you said that you disagree with
yourself about it, but of course are too inept to explain how. And
now you're hilariously trying to deny that you even wrote it, because
you're still too inept to explain how you disagree with yourself. LOL!!!

Let's go over it again Goober: You were explaining why it is that YOU
&quot;don't want people to consider contributing to decent lives for livestock
over the elimination objective&quot;, and one of the reasons you don't is
because of what you made a point of explaining that you yourself
consider to be &quot;real complaints&quot;:

&quot;3. Because you have not addressed the real complaints
of &quot;vegans&quot; regarding human use of animals:
....
b. no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the
deliberate killing of the animals erases all of it.&quot; - Goo

So how, now, are you claiming to disagree with yourself, you confused,
inept, maundering Goober?

Report this message

#47: Re: How absurd IS this Goober?

Posted on 2006-05-15 20:11:34 by Rudy Canoza

Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant cracker, lied:
&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006, Leif Erikson humiliated Fuckwit David Harrison again:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant cracker, lied:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt; &gt;&gt; of the animals erases all of it.&quot;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;I didn't write that.
&gt;
&gt; You sure did

I didn't write what you posted.

Report this message

#48: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-15 23:46:47 by Joseph Littleshoes

Dutch wrote:

&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty toll on
&gt; animal populations.
&gt;
&gt;
I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or
other animals?
---
JL

Report this message

#49: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-16 04:52:57 by Jerry Avins

Joseph Littleshoes wrote:

&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty
&gt;&gt; toll on animal populations.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt; I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or
&gt; other animals?

That's a fantasy of Sinclair Oil's. (Remember Dino the dinosaur?)
Petroleum, like coal, seems to be of plant origin.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Report this message

#50: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-16 05:25:10 by Joseph Littleshoes

Jerry Avins wrote:

&gt; Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Dutch wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty
&gt;&gt;&gt;toll on animal populations.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or
&gt;&gt;other animals?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; That's a fantasy of Sinclair Oil's. (Remember Dino the dinosaur?)
&gt; Petroleum, like coal, seems to be of plant origin.
&gt;
&gt; Jerry

Im almost relieved, as i was typing the above i thought &quot;this cant be
right&quot; plant origin makes more sense. Unfortunately on an abstract
level plants are living things also and we just remove one item from a
diet that still exploits living things, apparently a design flaw.

Animal based oils i suppose are no longer used in the modern west except
for cooking. Though there was a time when whale oil played an important
part.

Even though i still think there are more important things to devout
oneself to than veganism or any of its variations, everyone makes there
own choices.

I can respect 'living lightly' even if i don't feel a particular need to
embrace the life style, &quot;apres moi l'deluge.&quot;
---
JL

Report this message

#51: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-16 12:26:22 by Gary

Jerry Avins wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty
&gt; &gt;&gt; toll on animal populations.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt; I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or
&gt; &gt; other animals?
&gt;
&gt; That's a fantasy of Sinclair Oil's. (Remember Dino the dinosaur?)
&gt; Petroleum, like coal, seems to be of plant origin.

I actually looked this up several months ago while wondering why Alaska's North
Slope is so rich in petroleum.

As you said, coal is mostly of plant origin (ancient forests). The bulk of
petroleum reserves however come from sea life - mainly plankton and algae.
That's the common theory, at least.

Do a google search for petroleum origin and read a few of the results.

Report this message

#52: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-16 17:29:28 by pipes

Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty
&gt;&gt; toll on animal populations.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt; I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or
&gt; other animals?

Cute, but irrelevant. &quot;Animal product&quot; means something
humans directly obtain from animals: meat, dairy,
eggs, honey, fur, wool, blood, etc.

Report this message

#53: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-16 23:09:47 by Dutch

&quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:bF6ag.6717$<a href="mailto:fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net..." target="_blank">fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...</a>
&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty toll
&gt;&gt; on animal populations.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt; I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or other
&gt; animals?

Don't be silly. The term &quot;animal products&quot; implies the use of products from
animals that were raised and killed for that purpose.

Report this message

#54: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-16 23:36:32 by Jerry Avins

Dutch wrote:

&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:bF6ag.6717$<a href="mailto:fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net..." target="_blank">fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Dutch wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty toll
&gt;&gt;&gt;on animal populations.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or other
&gt;&gt;animals?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Don't be silly. The term &quot;animal products&quot; implies the use of products from
&gt; animals that were raised and killed for that purpose.

Me careful how you define things. If I were to shoot a wild doe because
she was eating my tulips, then butcher her so as not to be wasteful, the
venison would not be an animal product? Eggs taken from a wild duck's
nest are not animal products? Milk from cows who are given a decent
burial when they die of old age is not an animal product? Way to go!

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

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#55: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-16 23:41:47 by Jerry Avins

Dutch wrote:


&gt;&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:bF6ag.6717$<a href="mailto:fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net..." target="_blank">fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Dutch wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a
hefty toll
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;on animal populations.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or
other
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;animals?
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Don't be silly. The term &quot;animal products&quot; implies the use of
products from
&gt;&gt; animals that were raised and killed for that purpose.


Be careful how you define things. If I were to shoot a wild doe because
she was eating my tulips, then butcher her so as not to be wasteful, the
venison would not be an animal product? Eggs taken from a wild duck's
nest are not animal products? Milk from cows who are given a decent
burial when they die of old age is not an animal product? Way to go!

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Report this message

#56: Re: How absurd IS this Goober?

Posted on 2006-05-17 19:12:17 by dh

On 15 May 2006, a shamed and desperate Goober dishonestly maundered:

&gt;dh pointed out:
&gt;&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006, Goo again made a fool of himself by lying:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Mr Harrison asked:
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; of the animals erases all of it.&quot;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;I didn't write that.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; You sure did
&gt;
&gt;I didn't write what you posted.
_________________________________________________________
From: Goo
Message-ID: &lt;dA_0e.8632$<a href="mailto:S46.7220&#64;newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net" target="_blank">S46.7220&#64;newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net</a>&gt;
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:33:13 GMT

dh wrote:

&gt; You obviously don't want people to consider contributing
&gt; to decent lives for livestock over the elimination objective
.. . .

3. Because you have not addressed the real complaints
of &quot;vegans&quot; regarding human use of animals:
.. . .

b. no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the
deliberate killing of the animals erases all of it.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
And hilariously you STILL can't even explain how you think you
disagree with yourself, Goo! You really do suck at this.

Report this message

#57: Re: How badly DID Leif Erikson kick ignorant fuckwitted cracker Fuckwit David Harrison's ass?

Posted on 2006-05-17 20:43:43 by Rudy Canoza

Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt; On 15 May 2006, Leif Erikson wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006, Leif Erikson wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; of the animals erases all of it.&quot;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;I didn't write that.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; You sure did
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;I didn't write what you posted.
&gt; _________________________________________________________
&gt; From: Goo

No such poster.

No one wrote what you claimed someone wrote. You made it up. Post the
complete, unedited and IN-CONTEXT quote of what someone wrote, Fuckwit,
and perhaps that person will address your misunderstanding of it.
Otherwise, just go fuck your dog up the ass again.

Report this message

#58: Re: How badly DID Leif Erikson kick ignorant fuckwitted cracker Fuckwit David Harrison's ass?

Posted on 2006-05-19 02:30:56 by sector_four

Leif Erikson and dh (David Harrison)-------------two anti-ARAs---
-------------have been conducting this insipid feud for nearly 10
years.

It stopped being funny a long time ago--please do not
feed their sickness.

Pity them? Maybe. But don't get involved with them.


sector_four-------------At the sector, we try to be objective.

Report this message

#59: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 09:20:14 by Dutch

&quot;Jerry Avins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jya&#64;ieee.org" target="_blank">jya&#64;ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:VrmdnZql_9h_2PfZRVn-rQ&#64;rcn.net..." target="_blank">VrmdnZql_9h_2PfZRVn-rQ&#64;rcn.net...</a>
&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:bF6ag.6717$<a href="mailto:fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net..." target="_blank">fb2.5850&#64;newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Dutch wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;Joseph Littleshoes&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net" target="_blank">jpstifel&#64;pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Isn't gasoline an 'animal product&quot;?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;No, not per se, but production of petroleum products exacts a hefty toll
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;on animal populations.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I thought the oil in the ground was the remains of dead dinosaurs or
&gt;&gt;&gt;other
&gt;&gt;&gt;animals?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Don't be silly. The term &quot;animal products&quot; implies the use of products
&gt;&gt; from
&gt;&gt; animals that were raised and killed for that purpose.
&gt;
&gt; Me careful how you define things. If I were to shoot a wild doe because
&gt; she was eating my tulips, then butcher her so as not to be wasteful, the
&gt; venison would not be an animal product? Eggs taken from a wild duck's
&gt; nest are not animal products? Milk from cows who are given a decent
&gt; burial when they die of old age is not an animal product? Way to go!


No they're not, those examples fall outside the parameters of this
discussion, like road kill. You are missing an important element of the
term, the &quot;product&quot; part. And old cows are used, i.e for pet food, not
&quot;given decent burials&quot;. Maybe you should state your point.

Report this message

#60: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 17:58:05 by Jerry Avins

Dutch wrote:

...

&gt; No they're not, those examples fall outside the parameters of this
&gt; discussion, like road kill. You are missing an important element of the
&gt; term, the &quot;product&quot; part. And old cows are used, i.e for pet food, not
&gt; &quot;given decent burials&quot;. Maybe you should state your point.

Making the point explicit is always a good idea. The point is this:
using terms that make sense only within a special context without
qualifying them as such tends to detract from the validity of whatever
point they were intended to illustrate.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

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#61: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 18:06:26 by pipes

Jerry Avins wrote:
&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt;
&gt; ...
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;No they're not, those examples fall outside the parameters of this
&gt;&gt;discussion, like road kill. You are missing an important element of the
&gt;&gt;term, the &quot;product&quot; part. And old cows are used, i.e for pet food, not
&gt;&gt;&quot;given decent burials&quot;. Maybe you should state your point.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Making the point explicit is always a good idea. The point is this:
&gt; using terms that make sense only within a special context without
&gt; qualifying them as such tends to detract from the validity of whatever
&gt; point they were intended to illustrate.

Generally, making the point explicit is a good idea.
This little sub-thread, however, is about nitpicking.
In a newsgroup called alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,
where this thread originated (despite the
cross-posting), it is clear that &quot;animal products&quot;
means products obtained by humans from
contemporaneously living animals, either from the
bodies of the animals themselves (meat, fur, wool,
leather, etc.) or from things the animals secrete
(eggs, milk, honey, etc.) Petroleum products (if they
come from animal remains) unambiguously are not &quot;animal
products&quot;, because of the intervening time.

I predict you'll find more nits to pick with this.

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#62: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 18:44:08 by Jerry Avins

Leif Erikson wrote:

&gt; Jerry Avins wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; No they're not, those examples fall outside the parameters of this
&gt;&gt;&gt; discussion, like road kill. You are missing an important element of
&gt;&gt;&gt; the term, the &quot;product&quot; part. And old cows are used, i.e for pet
&gt;&gt;&gt; food, not &quot;given decent burials&quot;. Maybe you should state your point.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Making the point explicit is always a good idea. The point is this:
&gt;&gt; using terms that make sense only within a special context without
&gt;&gt; qualifying them as such tends to detract from the validity of whatever
&gt;&gt; point they were intended to illustrate.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Generally, making the point explicit is a good idea. This little
&gt; sub-thread, however, is about nitpicking. In a newsgroup called
&gt; alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, where this thread originated (despite the
&gt; cross-posting), it is clear that &quot;animal products&quot; means products
&gt; obtained by humans from contemporaneously living animals, either from
&gt; the bodies of the animals themselves (meat, fur, wool, leather, etc.) or
&gt; from things the animals secrete (eggs, milk, honey, etc.) Petroleum
&gt; products (if they come from animal remains) unambiguously are not
&gt; &quot;animal products&quot;, because of the intervening time.
&gt;
&gt; I predict you'll find more nits to pick with this.

I don't live in your niche. I read and write from alt.cooking-chat. I'm
chatting.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

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#63: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 20:04:57 by Dutch

&quot;Jerry Avins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jya&#64;ieee.org" target="_blank">jya&#64;ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; Leif Erikson wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Jerry Avins wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; ...
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No they're not, those examples fall outside the parameters of this
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; discussion, like road kill. You are missing an important element of
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the term, the &quot;product&quot; part. And old cows are used, i.e for pet
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; food, not &quot;given decent burials&quot;. Maybe you should state your point.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Making the point explicit is always a good idea. The point is this:
&gt;&gt;&gt; using terms that make sense only within a special context without
&gt;&gt;&gt; qualifying them as such tends to detract from the validity of whatever
&gt;&gt;&gt; point they were intended to illustrate.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Generally, making the point explicit is a good idea. This little
&gt;&gt; sub-thread, however, is about nitpicking. In a newsgroup called
&gt;&gt; alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, where this thread originated (despite the
&gt;&gt; cross-posting), it is clear that &quot;animal products&quot; means products
&gt;&gt; obtained by humans from contemporaneously living animals, either from
&gt;&gt; the bodies of the animals themselves (meat, fur, wool, leather, etc.) or
&gt;&gt; from things the animals secrete (eggs, milk, honey, etc.) Petroleum
&gt;&gt; products (if they come from animal remains) unambiguously are not
&gt;&gt; &quot;animal products&quot;, because of the intervening time.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I predict you'll find more nits to pick with this.
&gt;
&gt; I don't live in your niche. I read and write from alt.cooking-chat. I'm
&gt; chatting.

That might explain some of the confusion. Your point is acknowledged, animal
remains are part of the formation of
petroleum products, however the question under discussion here was as
follows...

&lt;------------------------------&gt;
When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
rice production kill wildlife instead?
&lt;----------------------------&gt;

Both *live*stock, and wild*life* are *alive*, those are the animals directly
and indirectly impacted by agriculture.

Report this message

#64: The ineptitude...the absurdity...the maundering...the bewilderment...the stupidity...the dishonesty.

Posted on 2006-05-19 20:14:51 by dh

On 17 May 2006, Goo hilariously continues insisting that he disagrees with himself:

&gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt; On 15 May 2006, Goo hilariously continues insisting that he disagrees with himself:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006, Goo hilariously continues insisting that he disagrees with himself:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; of the animals erases all of it.&quot;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;I didn't write that.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; You sure did
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;I didn't write what you posted.
&gt;&gt; _________________________________________________________
&gt;&gt; From: Goo
&gt;
&gt;No such poster.

LOL! Goo hilariously claims that he doesn't exist.

&gt;No one wrote what you claimed someone wrote. You made it up. Post the
&gt;complete, unedited and IN-CONTEXT quote of what someone wrote

Here it is again Goo:
_________________________________________________________
From: Goo
Message-ID: &lt;dA_0e.8632$<a href="mailto:S46.7220&#64;newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net" target="_blank">S46.7220&#64;newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net</a>&gt;
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:33:13 GMT

dh wrote:

&gt; You obviously don't want people to consider contributing
&gt; to decent lives for livestock over the elimination objective
....

3. Because you have not addressed the real complaints
of &quot;vegans&quot; regarding human use of animals:
....

b. no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the
deliberate killing of the animals erases all of it.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Why are you ashamed of what you wrote, and how are you now claiming to
disagree with yourself, if you think you do? Remember Goober that WHEN
you AGAIN fail to explain how you disagree with yourself, it will again
be convincing evidence that you don't. If you simply deny writing what
you wrote again, it will be yet more convincing evidence that you're totally
inept AND that you don't disagree with yourself. You REALLY do suck at this,
Goo.

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#65: Re: How badly DID Leif Erikson kick ignorant fuckwitted cracker Fuckwit David Harrison's ass?

Posted on 2006-05-19 20:17:12 by dh

On 18 May 2006 17:30:56 -0700, &quot;Ronald 'More-More' Moshki&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:sector_four&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">sector_four&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Leif Erikson and dh (David Harrison)-------------two anti-ARAs---

No.

&gt;-------------have been conducting this insipid feud for nearly 10
&gt;years.
&gt;
&gt;It stopped being funny a long time ago

What humor there was remains.

&gt;--please do not
&gt;feed their sickness.
&gt;
&gt;Pity them?

Think about what the differences mean toward human influence
on animals, if that's not too much AW for you, and Goo, and...

&gt;Maybe. But don't get involved with them.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;sector_four-------------At the sector, we try to be objective.

Be.

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#66: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 20:49:52 by Joseph Littleshoes

Dutch wrote:
&gt; &quot;Jerry Avins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jya&#64;ieee.org" target="_blank">jya&#64;ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Leif Erikson wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Jerry Avins wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Dutch wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ...
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;No they're not, those examples fall outside the parameters of this
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;discussion, like road kill. You are missing an important element of
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the term, the &quot;product&quot; part. And old cows are used, i.e for pet
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;food, not &quot;given decent burials&quot;. Maybe you should state your point.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Making the point explicit is always a good idea. The point is this:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;using terms that make sense only within a special context without
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;qualifying them as such tends to detract from the validity of whatever
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;point they were intended to illustrate.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Generally, making the point explicit is a good idea. This little
&gt;&gt;&gt;sub-thread, however, is about nitpicking. In a newsgroup called
&gt;&gt;&gt;alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, where this thread originated (despite the
&gt;&gt;&gt;cross-posting), it is clear that &quot;animal products&quot; means products
&gt;&gt;&gt;obtained by humans from contemporaneously living animals, either from
&gt;&gt;&gt;the bodies of the animals themselves (meat, fur, wool, leather, etc.) or
&gt;&gt;&gt;from things the animals secrete (eggs, milk, honey, etc.) Petroleum
&gt;&gt;&gt;products (if they come from animal remains) unambiguously are not
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;animal products&quot;, because of the intervening time.

Specious logic. They ARE animal products even if you exclude them from
your working definition because of the passage of time (the PLO would
agree with you though, im sure, in regards the Hebrew occupation of
Palestine:)

I wrote a rather whimsical account of the idea of raising food animals
on idyllic nature preserves where other predators than ourselves would
be eliminated, and only harvesting these food animals upon their natural
demise.

But i decided to save it to file rather than post it. I also am reading
this thread from the cooking group so you all can easily imagine my
position. (Vegan recipes upon request, i am a big fan of Elizabeth Moore
Lape, diet for a small planet &amp; etc.)

I have been told by people who should know, that an old animal can make
a very tasty stock after much simmering, though most people prefer a
young flesh, old flesh has aficionados also.

Perhaps some fava beans and a nice Chianti?
---
JL


&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I predict you'll find more nits to pick with this.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I don't live in your niche. I read and write from alt.cooking-chat. I'm
&gt;&gt;chatting.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; That might explain some of the confusion. Your point is acknowledged, animal
&gt; remains are part of the formation of
&gt; petroleum products, however the question under discussion here was as
&gt; follows...
&gt;
&gt; &lt;------------------------------&gt;
&gt; When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
&gt; rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
&gt; whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
&gt; or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
&gt; dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
&gt; and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
&gt; rice production kill wildlife instead?
&gt; &lt;----------------------------&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Both *live*stock, and wild*life* are *alive*, those are the animals directly
&gt; and indirectly impacted by agriculture.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

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#67: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 21:07:21 by Rudy Canoza

Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
&gt; Dutch wrote:
&gt; &gt; &quot;Jerry Avins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:jya&#64;ieee.org" target="_blank">jya&#64;ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Leif Erikson wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Jerry Avins wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Dutch wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ...
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;No they're not, those examples fall outside the parameters of this
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;discussion, like road kill. You are missing an important element of
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the term, the &quot;product&quot; part. And old cows are used, i.e for pet
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;food, not &quot;given decent burials&quot;. Maybe you should state your point.
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Making the point explicit is always a good idea. The point is this:
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;using terms that make sense only within a special context without
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;qualifying them as such tends to detract from the validity of whatever
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;point they were intended to illustrate.
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Generally, making the point explicit is a good idea. This little
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;sub-thread, however, is about nitpicking. In a newsgroup called
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian, where this thread originated (despite the
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;cross-posting), it is clear that &quot;animal products&quot; means products
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;obtained by humans from contemporaneously living animals, either from
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;the bodies of the animals themselves (meat, fur, wool, leather, etc.) or
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;from things the animals secrete (eggs, milk, honey, etc.) Petroleum
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;products (if they come from animal remains) unambiguously are not
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;animal products&quot;, because of the intervening time.
&gt;
&gt; Specious logic. They ARE animal products even if

No. They are *not* animal products in the very clear context in which
the discussion has been occurring. They may not be animal products in
any context, as a claim has been posted that petroleum does not come
from animal remains. Even if petroleum does come from animal remains,
it is not an animal product in the unambiguous context of the thread.

I was wrong about, and owe an apology to, Jerry Avins. You, not he,
are the one who stubbornly wants to nitpick.

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#68: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 23:08:06 by Joseph Littleshoes

Leif Erikson wrote:

&gt;
&gt; I was wrong about, and owe an apology to, Jerry Avins. You, not he,
&gt; are the one who stubbornly wants to nitpick.
&gt;

Actually i would prefer to trade recipes rather than discuss life styles.
---
JL

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#69: Re: What to consider? - gasoline

Posted on 2006-05-19 23:48:13 by Jerry Avins

Leif Erikson wrote:

...

&gt; I was wrong about, and owe an apology to, Jerry Avins. ...

I don't see what for.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

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#70: Re: The ineptitude...the absurdity...the maundering...the bewilderment...the stupidity...the dishone

Posted on 2006-06-07 22:06:43 by dh

On Fri, 19 May 2006 14:14:51 -0400, <a href="mailto:dh&#64;." target="_blank">dh&#64;.</a> wrote:

&gt;On 17 May 2006, Goo hilariously continues insisting that he disagrees with himself:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 15 May 2006, Goo hilariously continues insisting that he disagrees with himself:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Wed, 10 May 2006, Goo hilariously continues insisting that he disagrees with himself:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; of the animals erases all of it.&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;I didn't write that.
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; You sure did
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;I didn't write what you posted.
&gt;&gt;&gt; _________________________________________________________
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Goo
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;No such poster.
&gt;
&gt; LOL! Goo hilariously claims that he doesn't exist.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;No one wrote what you claimed someone wrote. You made it up. Post the
&gt;&gt;complete, unedited and IN-CONTEXT quote of what someone wrote
&gt;
&gt;Here it is again Goo:
&gt;_________________________________________________________
&gt;From: Goo
&gt;Message-ID: &lt;dA_0e.8632$<a href="mailto:S46.7220&#64;newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net" target="_blank">S46.7220&#64;newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net</a>&gt;
&gt;Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:33:13 GMT
&gt;
&gt;dh wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; You obviously don't want people to consider contributing
&gt;&gt; to decent lives for livestock over the elimination objective
&gt;...
&gt;
&gt;3. Because you have not addressed the real complaints
&gt; of &quot;vegans&quot; regarding human use of animals:
&gt;...
&gt;
&gt; b. no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the
&gt; deliberate killing of the animals erases all of it.
&gt;¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
&gt;Why are you ashamed of what you wrote, and how are you now claiming to
&gt;disagree with yourself, if you think you do?

Goo? Why???

&gt;Remember Goober that WHEN
&gt;you AGAIN fail to explain how you disagree with yourself, it will again
&gt;be convincing evidence that you don't. If you simply deny writing what
&gt;you wrote again, it will be yet more convincing evidence that you're totally
&gt; inept AND that you don't disagree with yourself. You REALLY do suck at this,
&gt;Goo.

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#71: Re: Fuckwit's ineptitude...Fuckwit's absurdity...the lying...thecracker bewilderment...the pig-sodom

Posted on 2006-06-07 22:28:14 by Walter Pipes

Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant lying pig-sodomizing
goober cracker, lied:

&gt; On Fri, 19 May 2006 14:14:51 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant lying pig-sodomizing goober cracker, lied:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;On 17 May 2006, Leif Erikson helpfully wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;On 15 May 2006, Leif Erikson helpfully wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;On Wed, 10 May 2006, Leif Erikson helpfully wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Fuckwit David Harrison, ignorant dog-sodomizing lying cracker, lied:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Then exactly how do you think you disagree with yourself that:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;of the animals erases all of it.&quot;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I didn't write that.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You sure did
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I didn't write what you posted.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;_________________________________________________________
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;From: Goo
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;No such poster.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; LOL! Leif hilariously claims that he doesn't exist.

No such poster as &quot;goo&quot;, Fuckwit.


&gt;&gt;Why are you ashamed of what you wrote, and how are you now claiming to
&gt;&gt;disagree with yourself, if you think you do?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Leif?

Fuckwit David Harrison has only made two mistakes:
posting to usenet in the first place, and naively
revealing his stupidity. His statements of his beliefs
are not mistakes of terminology. It is his *beliefs*
themselves that are mistaken.

The animals that will be raised for us to eat
are more than just &quot;nothing&quot;, because they
*will* be born unless something stops their
lives from happening. Since that is the case,
if something stops their lives from happening,
whatever it is that stops it is truly &quot;denying&quot;
them of the life they otherwise would have had.
Fuckwit - 12/09/1999

This statement was not a &quot;mistake of terminology&quot;.
Fuckwit has said lots of other things indicating he
thinks &quot;vegans&quot; want to &quot;deny&quot; something to livestock
animals.



It's not out of consideration for porcupines
that we don't raise them for food. It's because
they would be a pain in the ass to raise. We
don't raise cattle out of consideration for them
either, but because they're fairly easy to
raise.
Fuckwit David Harrison - Sep 26, 2005

This statement is not a &quot;mistake&quot; of terminology. It
shows that Fuckwit David Harrison doesn't care at all
about giving &quot;benefits&quot; to farm animals; rather, he
only wants to get things from them.


Dave:
I am suggesting that we have no reason to
promote life for farm animals ahead of life for
wild animals

Fuckwit:
LOL!!!. We have at least two reasons. Can you
think of either?

Dave:
Enlighten me.

Fuckwit:
Meat. Gravy.

Fuckwit David Harrison - Mar 20, 2006



Fuckwit does not care at all about the quality of
animals' lives:

I am not an extremist about it, and if I thought
that all of the animals I eat had terrible
lives, I would still eat meat. That is not
because I don't care about them at all, but I
would just ignore their suffering.
Fuckwit David Harrison - Nov 29, 1999



He believes they can experience things - loss,
deprivation, unfairness:

Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
born if nothing prevents that from happening,
that would experience the loss if their lives
are prevented.
Fuckwit - 08/01/2000

What gives you the right to want to deprive
them [unborn animals] of having what life they
could have?
Fuckwit - 10/12/2001

What I'm saying is unfair for the animals that
*could* get to live, is for people not to
consider the fact that they are only keeping
these animals from being killed, by keeping
them from getting to live at all.
Fuckwit - 10/19/1999

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#72: Re: Fuckwit's ineptitude...Fuckwit's absurdity...the lying...the cracker bewilderment...the pig-sodo

Posted on 2006-06-09 02:12:04 by dh

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 a badly self-defeated Goober desperately wept:

dh asked:

&gt;&gt;&gt;Why are you ashamed of what you wrote, and how are you now claiming to
&gt;&gt;&gt;disagree with yourself, if you think you do?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Goo?
&gt;
&gt;Fuckwit

No Goo. Everyone knows how easily confused you remain, but try
to understand the question, and then try to explain how you think you
somehow disagree with yourself that:

&quot;no matter how &quot;decent&quot; the conditions are, the deliberate killing
of the animals erases all of it.&quot; - Goo

if you still think that you do. If you fail to explain how, it will be
understood that you agree with yourself and you think what you
claimed is true. LOL!!! You live such a confused and disturbed life,
you poor necessarily inept Goober...no one else takes idiocy to
quite the level that you do.

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